Clean government - not about high salaries, but 'realistic' ones: Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong interview with Yang Lan <杨澜>

In an interview with Chinese TV personality Yang Lan on Beijing Satellite TV, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong touched on regional trade agreements, China's proposed Maritime Silk Road, and Singapore's take on the issue of clean government.
Channel NewsAsia, 11 Nov 2014

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong indicated that Singapore would like to be a conduit for a Maritime Silk Road, mooted by Chinese President Xi Jinping. In a half-hour interview with Yang Lan on Beijing Satellite TV that was broadcast on Monday (Nov 10), he said the world is watching China’s anti-corruption drive as it could be a tremendous boost to its development and stability, and described it as an admirable effort.



He also addressed the notion of clean government in Singapore. He said it is not about high salaries, but ones that are "realistic and correct", in order to find the right people who are “most capable”, and “most trustworthy”.

Here are some excerpts from Mr Lee's interview, aired while the Prime Minister is in Beijing for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) 2014 summit.


ON REGIONAL COOPERATION

Q: In the Asia-Pacific region, there are many bilateral, multi-lateral, regional and sub-regional trade agreements and mechanisms of cooperation. For example, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) which is supported by the United States, and the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), which China is involved in. Do you think there is an element of competition between these two groupings?

A: Of course there is some element of competition and overlapping, but that cannot be helped. Because the most ideal way to cooperate is to do so on a global basis, which involves all economies. It becomes a multi-lateral agreement, such as through the Doha Round of negotiations. But the Doha Round involves many countries, so it becomes difficult to reach an agreement. In the Asia-Pacific region, we hope that if fewer countries are involved, that makes it less difficult and we can get things done faster.

So for APEC, we have a voluntary method of cooperation, and we have already made some progress. The TPP and RCEP are both recognised as pathways to achieve free trade in the Asia-Pacific. Our economies are in different stages of development, and our different mechanisms for cooperation need to adapt to these realities.


Q: One reality is that Singapore is very much involved in these various trade agreements and cooperation mechanisms. How does this reflect Singapore's view of itself? What does globalisation mean to Singapore?

A: We have no choice. We are a very small country, with a very open economy. If we are not outward-looking, then we have no way to go. In countries such as China, the US, and Japan, the domestic economy is already huge, the domestic demand is sufficient. We do not have that - if we rely on domestic demand to boost manufacturing, I think very few companies will come to Singapore. If we rely on our own farming to supply all our food, then I think we will starve. So we have to look outwards. If there is an opportunity, we will try our best to take part in these negotiations for free trade agreements, and try our best to cooperate with other countries, to deepen our relationships; enhance our mutually beneficial work.


THE NEW MARITIME SILK ROAD

Q: President Xi Jinping has proposed the idea of developing a new Maritime Silk Road. In such a scenario, for the relevant economies, in terms of infrastructure - including information networks and the internet, and other network systems - there can be improvements. Does Singapore see an opportunity and role for itself in such a scenario?

A: The idea of a Maritime Silk Road - it can deepen our cooperation with neighbouring countries, and strengthen, especially, trade and investment from China and its neighbouring countries. So of course, we hope that some of these services can be supplied through Singapore's port, airport and networks.


MAINTAINING INTEGRITY IN GOVERNMENT

Q: Economic reform, the creative economy, and urbanisation are some of the topics up for discussion at APEC. Another important theme is anti-corruption. What are your views on the relationship between anti-corruption measures and economic development? In the past, people have viewed this as a political issue and a social issue.

A: In the long term, anti-corruption measures are necessary for economic development. In Singapore, we feel anti-corruption is very important. Since the People's Action Party became the ruling party, its 55 years - we have always stood firm on maintaining a clean and corruption-free Government. Of course, sometimes some people may break the rules, or break the law. No matter who is involved, we deal with this very strictly according to law. So I admire Mr Xi's anti-corruption drive in China.


Q: So you have been paying attention to the anti-corruption drive?

A: I think the whole world is paying attention. Because if China can succeed in this, I think it will be a tremendous boost to China's development and stability.


Q: In China, particularly at the government level, the topic of Singapore's clean government is often discussed. But very often people attribute its success to high salaries for office-holders. Do you think it is that simple?

A: I think the topic of high salaries can cause a sharp reaction. In principle, we are not talking about high salaries, what we want are realistic and correct salaries. We want talent, we want morally upright people, and we want the right people for the right jobs. The most important job must be done by the most capable, the most trustworthy person. If we want the services of such capable and trustworthy people, then we must treat them fairly and equally. We must have a practical system - a realistic salary.

At the same time our requirements are strict - your performance must be good. Legally, you absolutely cannot do anything you are not supposed to do, and if that happens, you will be punished under the law, and the punishment will be severe. So this is not just a question of salaries, it is also a matter of the system, an issue of transparency, and our whole culture.

PM Lee talks elites and the law, and high salaries, on Chinese TV interview
The Straits Times, 11 Nov 2014

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong was interviewed by prolific Chinese media television host Yang Lan last week, ahead of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit in Beijing over the weekend.

In the interview, which was televised on Monday, PM Lee spoke on a variety of international and domestic issues. These ranged from Singapore's involvement in regional trade agreements and bilateral projects with China, to the relationship between the law and elites and whether high salaries are the only factor in ensuring clean government.


Yang Lan: Singapore is involved in several trade agreements and cooperation mechanisms. How does this reflect Singapore's view of itself, and what is the significance of globalisation to Singapore?

PM Lee: We have no choice as we are a very small country with an open economy. If we do not look towards the world, we will have no way to go.

Countries like China, the US or Japan have a huge domestic economy and sufficient domestic demand. We do not have that, and if we rely on domestic demand to sustain the manufacturing industry, few companies will come to Singapore. Likewise, if we rely on our own farming for our food supply, we will starve.

So we have to look towards the world. Given the opportunity, we will want to take part in these free trade talks and work with other countries, to deepen our interactions and work towards mutual benefits.


Yang Lan: Chinese President Xi Jinping has proposed developing a 21st century Maritime Silk Road. This would bring about improvements to infrastructure, including information and communication networks, for economies along the route. Does Singapore see any opportunities for itself or any role it can play in this?

PM Lee: Of course. We are a logistics centre, a very big port, an entrepot, a communications centre and an aviation centre. Our Changi Airport alone handles more than 50 million passengers per year.

Through the Maritime Silk Road, we can deepen cooperation with neighbouring countries and step up trade and investments with countries near China. We hope that it will provide us with more opportunities, and that Singapore's port, airport and network can supply some of the services needed.


Yang Lan: What are some of the bilateral projects you are interested in and what projects will you discuss with (China's) President Xi (Jinping)?

PM Lee: Some of our current projects are quite advanced, like the Suzhou Industrial Park, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. The Tianjin Eco-city is still at the development phase, but it has begun to take shape.

We are currently discussing with China a new third foundation-level project between both countries. It will be in tandem with China's macro policy of developing its western regions, and will involve selecting a city in western China for the bilateral project.

This will also be in tandem with the concept of China's New Silk Road Economic Belt and a related project on modern logistics. We are still in discussions with China and it has not been confirmed yet.


Yang Lan: In China, especially at the government level, Singapore's clean government model is often brought up for discussion. But quite often, people associate it with paying high salaries to ensure a clean government. Do you think it is that simple?

PM Lee: I think the topic of high salaries can evoke strong, negative reactions. In principle, it is not about a high salary, but rather a realistic and commensurate salary.

We believe in meritocracy, having the right people for the right jobs. The most important jobs have to be done by the most capable and reliable people. And if you want capable and reliable people for these jobs, then you have to treat them equally and fairly.

People often say they should be motivated by a sacrificial spirit, a spirit of service. Since they are doing it for the country and for the people, they must be willing to put aside their personal benefit and forge ahead selflessly. This definitely holds true.

But at the same time, these are peaceful times, not a revolutionary period, and everyone needs to support their families and plan for their future. Those people who are capable may choose not to make the sacrifice and hope someone else will do it. So in this context, we need a pragmatic system, a realistic wage.

At the same time, we have strict requirements that work performance must be good. In terms of the law, you absolutely cannot cross the line. If you do something you are not supposed to, you will be punished severly under the law. So it is not just a matter of salaries, but also a matter of the system, of transparency, and of our culture of governance.


Yang Lan: China is also moving towards governing by rule of law. When people talk about Singapore's style of governance, they often say it is rule by the elite, which is a tendency of authoritarianism. What kind of relationship exists between the law and the elite, and how do you strike a balance?

PM Lee: The elites have to abide by the law too. We appoint people based on merit, selecting those who are the most capable for the most important tasks.

The law and honest governance are related too. If you don't have honest governance, even if you have the law, people may not necessarily believe that your courts and judges are impartial.


Yang Lan: I last interviewed you 10 years ago. In the past 10 years, what was the biggest challenge you faced as a leader?

PM Lee: The world is changing very quickly and we have to move along with it. If possible, even move a step faster than other countries. But moving quickly has not been easy for our people because they have had to adapt, change, understand, and sometimes shoulder some instability and risks.

This is not so easy to do in the current environment. We have resources, a more developed economy and better educated people, and these are our advantages. But the impact of globalisation on us, especially on the middle- and lower-income groups and on the less educated among us, is a long-term challenge we face.


Yang Lan: You decided to give out grants to employers (to retain employees) at the height of the global financial crisis. It led to the first budget deficit in Singapore history.

PM Lee: We have had budget deficits before, but that was somewhat bigger than previous deficits.


Yang Lan: Were you anxious at that time? Because people at that time could not see how quickly the economy would bounce back in the future?

PM Lee: We knew we had reserves, so we could tackle the crisis. But if we had to keep relying on our past reserves, I think after a while we would have exhausted them. Hence, we worried about how long the crisis would last, what other policies we would need to implement to manage the crisis. Or if our policies were sufficient and we could bide our time and wait out the storm patiently. Fortunately, the storm passed rather quickly, but also perhaps because of that, many people did not have the sense that we actually survived a crisis.


Yang Lan: In China, because housing prices in the big cities are so high, many young people cannot to buy homes even after working for many years. In Singapore, I understand property prices are also very high, and many foreigners come in to invest in property?

PM Lee: Prices have come down a bit.


Yang Lan: Oh, have they? I know many foreigners have been buying property in Singapore, causing land and housing prices to go up. How do you help the young people in Singapore afford property?

PM Lee: We have the Housing Development Board (HDB), government-developed housing, which is unique. The government sells these flats to them at comparably cheaper prices. Around 85 per cent of families in Singapore buy, and not rent, the property they live in, which means they own their homes.


Yang Lan: I heard young people in Singapore can afford a flat after working for four years. Is it true?

PM Lee: They can start buying flats by taking out loans, and they can also use their Central Provident Fund savings to repay the loans gradually.

Our slogan is: if you earn $1,000 a month, you will be able to afford a two-room flat; if your monthly household income is $2,000, you can afford a three-room flat; if you earn $4,000 a month, you can afford a four-room flat. A couple earning a total income of $4,000 a month is quite common. This is our policy, and it is doable.

Foreigners cannot buy HDB flats, and they are only made available to Singapore citizens. Therefore, our citizens do not need to worry, because we guarantee that if you have a job, you should be able to afford a flat.


Yang Lan: There has been greater political participation in Singapore in recent years, with society becoming more advanced. Since you've been Prime Minister, I've noticed you've also given outlets for people to voice their opinions?

PM Lee: That is a must. In Singapore, everyone wants to have a say, and there are plenty of opportunities to do so, be it in newspapers, the media, social media and online platforms. Everyone is on Facebook in Singapore, many people have blogs, and we encourage people to speak up, but we also remind them to be responsible for what they say and to exercise caution.

It is also not all about blaming people and talking bad about people, because politics is not just talk, but also action.


Yang Lan: You have set up a Facebook account too. What do you post about and do you interact with the people who comment on your posts?

PM Lee: I wanted to interact with the younger generation, so I decided to try out Facebook. The reactions have been quite good. But serious matters are difficult to express through Facebook postings since they are at most two to three paragraphs long. No one will read posts that are too long.

Also, you need photos to make your posts more attractive. People are typically more candid in their responses to photos.

PM Lee talks about casinos, population, family, in Part 2 of Chinese TV interview
The Straits Times, 30 Nov 2014

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong was interviewed by prolific Chinese media television host Yang Lan in November, ahead of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (Apec) summit in Beijing. Part of the interview was televised in mid-November, where Mr Lee spoke on a variety of international and domestic issues. A second programme from the interview was broadcast on Sunday night, which juxtaposed Mr Lee’s recent comments with those from a much earlier interview with Mr Lee Kuan Yew.

The questions touched on Singapore’s economy and the casinos, anti-corruption efforts, Singapore’s population problem and PM Lee’s family.

Here are excerpts from the programme:

Yang Lan: In your 10 years as a leader, there have been many big changes in the political-economics of society and the cultural landscape, therefore certain governance ideas and methods have to change as well. I remember at the beginning, you proposed to develop this entertainment centre, a casino, there were many people who reserved their opinions, including Lee Kuan Yew, who had never advocated a casino in the past. After all these years, do you think that you have made the right decision? Was it able to gain approval from more people, including your father's?

PM Lee: My father was very much in support of this policy later on, because he said, he had opposed the idea of a casino in Singapore for many years, but the world changed, so we have to change too. But we think of ways to protect our people, to prevent them from spiralling down with gambling addiction. The casinos in Singapore opened in 2010, and has been operating for more than 4 years now. From the economic angle, I think it is rather good because it attracted many tourists to Singapore. Tourists may not go to gamble, but because it is there, they will want to come and have a look.

Yang Lan: But if Singapore citizens want to enter, you implement some measures to discourage them?

PM Lee: We don't encourage them, our fundamental method is, if Singapore citizens want to enter, they will pay $100 per day to the government. This is a tax that one has to pay even before the start of gambling. As a result, there are Singaporeans who gamble, but not many, and the number is not increasing. Hence, 80 per cent of casino visitors are foreigners, that is our goal.

Yang Lan: How do you view the relationship between anti-corruption and economic development; people used to view one as a political issue and the other, a social issue.

PM Lee: I think in the long term, anti-corruption is an important factor in economic development. We take anti-corruption seriously in Singapore; the PAP has ruled Singapore for the past 55 years, and we have always been determined to maintain a clean and honest government. There are of course, times when people flout the rules, or violate the law, we don't care who it is, they will be punished by strict laws. Because if we protect the person, or cover up, or hush it, I think everyone will know sooner or later. The situation has changed, Singapore is different from before. The reason why we are able to attract investments, especially becoming a financial hub, a clean and honest system is very important. When everyone comes to Singapore, they have to understand, you need to pay fees, and fees have receipts, they are accounted for. Other than that, it will be under-table or private transactions. I think this is our advantage in competition. Other countries also understand, and may want to do the same, but to turn the entire culture around, turn the entire system around is extremely difficult, that is why I greatly admire President Xi's anti-corruption efforts in China right now.

Yang Lan: You pay close attention to such news?

PM Lee: The whole world pays close attention to this. Because if China can do it, I think it will be of great help to China's development and stability.

Yang Lan: I would like to know, what are some of your methods to promote the growth of a young population in Singapore?

PM Lee: I am much inferior to him (Mr Lee Kuan Yew) in this matter - what he dares to say, I may not dare to say. We still face this problem, right now on average, a woman gives birth to 1.2 children. So if you do a calculation, one generation loses 40 per cent, two generations lose maybe 60 per cent, then three, four generations later, there will be no one left.

Yang Lan: What do you do then?

PM Lee: We have encouragement, which is important, we also pay close attention to early childhood education and childcare services. This is because many women want to continue working after childbirth, so who will take care of the children when that happens? If you have parents who are not that old, they can help you; but there are also some grandparents who say: “I have already carried out my responsibilities, I have no problems, but you want me to take care of the child, change diapers, find someone else to do it for you.” That is why we are opening more childcare centres, and are grooming more kindergarten teachers. But it is still not enough.

Yang Lan: In enhancing women's participation in the society and economy, and helping them balance their careers and family, do you seek opinions from your wife? She is also a very busy career woman herself.

PM Lee: She has her own views, of course. She is very much in support of working women, and also women supporting their families. But these are very personal decisions, and I think every married couple should make their own decisions, we can only encourage them. We can only explain to them, make them understand. You will age, though you may be young now, but one day you will grow old too. When you get old, you might regret and feel that you should have given birth to children.

Yang Lan: Speaking of children, your children are also growing up.

PM Lee: They have grown up already.

Yang Lan: That's true. Are any of them interested in entering politics?

PM Lee: At the moment, no.

Yang Lan: No? Would you specially encourage or lead them in this direction?

PM Lee: I think they have to find their own path in life.

Yang Lan: Is that to say, for your children, you want to give them more freedom to choose their lives?

PM Lee: They have to choose, because a child's personality and aptitude have to be taken into consideration. Every child is different, parents would of course wish that their children can fly high, but they all have different natures, some may be more inclined towards the arts, some may be more interested in computers or science, this will have to be developed according to their interests.